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news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/...

But what does one do? Are you in favour of culling?

..... better management of elephant enclosures, translocation, and elephant contraception, could also be used.

Pity the foo who has to try to fit a rubber johnny on one.

haha! I think it's a progesterone injection.

Don't like the idea of that... can't they just move them to somewhere that needs elephants? I'd quite like to see a herd grazing on the Sussex downs, for example...

Yeah :(

I love elephants.

There are plenty of umbrella stand factories that would be happy to look after a few elephants.

I'm fucking upset about culling elephants :(

Yeah me too. I hope they find another way to control the population.

it sounds like really dumb and stupid management of the elephant population.

Exactly.

I think you'll find its the animal lover brigade that allowed this to become a problem. I mean, seriously, "How self-aware do they have to be before killing them is murder". Fuck off. It's an elephant. Disney has warped your little mind. Get out of your seat of power, you are a fucking child.

Other ideas than the cull? Move them all to zoos around the world perhaps so you can all take your turns in wanking them off as they're so fucking special.

There's nothing wrong with loving animals you know! I don't want to live in a world where all these creatures have been exterminated.

They should start an 'Adopt an Elephant' scheme, but unlike other animal adoption schemes, you actually get the elephant at home to look after.

Hahaha

Fine, Syl. There's nothing wrong with loving animals, no. They're beautiful and important part of this world. But lets see, shall we just let the badgers spread TB. The sheep Foot and Mouth. Fuck it why not just let the rats spread the plague again. Their numbers are too large and are causing a problem. Just because they're one of the lovable animals makes them no more special than any other.

WH : *checks back yard* Nope. Not enough vegetation back there :P

And there you have one of the problems.

Sul : it's true. I really don't mind if crocs and sharks go extinct ;)

Haha. How very true that is. I very much doubt there would be such a backlash if there were similar problems with crocs. I think also peoples opinions towards elephants are that they've had it rough in the past. All that hunting for ivory and what have you. It's actually amusing how much humanising is done by folk.

Hmm. I seem to have opinions today. How strange.

Mostly the reaction is emotional because I hate the thought of them shooting the things. It's dreadful and violent, but then again, millions of animals die every day in abbatoirs, which is equally disgusting if truth be told.

Disgusting but tasty. Oh so very tasty.

www.stephen-knapp.com/veget...

Yeah. Tasty, but what a moral price.
(I'm not vegetarian, but I wish I had the strength to be one)

"...as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized.” Hahaha. Dear website owner, Advice: Don't open your pointed page of quotes from noteworthy people with something that sounds like it came out the mouth of Prince Philip.

Pfffft!

Oh and the rest of it - pomposity quite bountiful as is a religious persuasion. Not a single good argument against eating meat in any of it. Oh and the Dalai Lama isn't as articulate as I thought he would be.

What would be a good argument against eating meat?

Thats really not for me to say, is it?

Why not? I don't see what's wrong with their arguments?

EDIT : I think not wanting to cause pain and suffering to creatures is a pretty strong argument.

Firstly, I think a very important thing to consider is that elephants are an endangered species. Not, it's true, in South Africa. But it's a protected species worldwide, which makes me think that culling them probably isn't a good idea. Okay, moving them is going to be tricky as well (visions of a 12 foot high sheepdog...)

My argument against eating meat is that I don't need to eat meat to survive. I do perfectly well without it, so I don't figure it's necessary. If I had Crohn's disease, or something similar, and had to eat meat, or if I was stuck on a desert island with nothing but a load of steaks, then of course I'd eat meat to survive.

Yes, it's not necessary to eat it, we have a choice. That's the difference.

It's not necessary not to eat it. Don't put your fucking morals on me! We dont need to do alot of things but we still do. In all honesty, you probably did lots of things today that in some way contributed to the hurt of another human being. Start your fucking ethics crusade at home if you're gonna have one.

It's not an ethics crusade, it's a discussion, no need to be rude Sul. I'm not putting anything on you, I'm expressing my opinion, if you don't agree that's cool.

I'm not putting my morals on anyone! I hate it when vegetarians try to convert meat eaters / leap on a high horse. But, I do try to live as ethically as I can... and that includes not eating meat. It's not going to change the world. Of course it's not necessary to not eat meat!

I love the vegetarian debate. Here's another one we had. oh!

Syl: I'm not being rude. I'm swearing. I kinda do that alot. And I wasn't particularly addressing any one person but rather the whole brood of veggies that think eating meat is murder (read cockcunt Morrisey (your songs are shit they sound the same doodaa!)). Truth is, drinking coffee, eating chocolate, snorting coke, are all closer to the mark. Sort your fellow man out, then think of the fluffy bunnies.

"A lot more people buy free range eggs than fair trade coffee. Almost makes me wish I was a chicken."

The three C's of Columbia...

Hehe. Didnt notice I did that :)

"Sort your fellow man out, then think of the fluffy bunnies."
I agree, but we weren't talking about that. Just because we are looking after humans, does not mean we must neglect the plight of animals, that's all I'm saying.

The plight? Far too much humanising goes on whilst actual people are ignored. Settle your inner-morals by not eating meat but dont take needed mesaures to curb the elephant population that are ruining human lives. I think your priorities are very wrong. I think alot of peoples priorities are very wrong.

I'm not humanising. I think they have a right to live as much as we do.

But that view doesnt extend to the icky animals?

No, that was a joke, of course it includes icky animals...I think it's unfair that humans get to breed too much and spread out all over the place, demanding all the resources, and forcing other creatures into extinction. Surely?

Next time you squat that fly think about it. Its the exact same principle.

MEAT!!!!!

if your a vagetarian then your depriving yourself of the best foods! why would you do it unless your a masocist?

also if god dint want us to eat animals why would He make them of meat

I'm not getting into this one again because I always win.

vagetarian is that someone that doesn't eat vadges?

Sull you called Morrisey a cockcunt, this is a very sad thread :(
There's going to be no meat at the wedding and we will play Smiths and Morrisey tunes all day long.

Sul-eh : flies are not endangered or sentient and they die quickly with no suffering. I think. I've never been a fly so i don't know for sure. But they certainly don't lie there bellowing in pain. Ugh.

Che : please tell me why you are a vegetarian, I could use some strong arguments here. Thanks.

(We won't play The Smiths and Morrisey at all, if I have any say in the matter)

I'm vegetarian for many reasons. Do a search to find why.

The main ones are:

Eating animals is cruel (I don't wear leather either)
Eating animals is unnecessary
Vegetarianism is good for my health
9 out of 10 cases of food poisoning are from meat/dairy
Eating meat is environmentally unsound (look at the energy required to produce animals to eat - it's something like 1 acre of veg needed if you are feeding a vegetarian, 10 acres needed to feed animals for a meat muncher, to produce the same amount of food energy)
Some of my best friends are animals
Meat tastes like death

etc

Eating animals is cruel

No it isn't at all. They're dead. They have no feelings of pain or discomfort while you are chewing at all.

Eating meat is environmentally unsound (look at the energy required to produce animals to eat - it's something like 1 acre of veg needed if you are feeding a vegetarian, 10 acres needed to feed animals for a meat muncher, to produce the same amount of food energy)

It's not as environmentally efficient, perhaps, but that doesn't make it unsound at all, unless you can demonstrate some sort of negative fall out from the 10 acre usage. Also, 10:1 also sounds exaggerated. Are you assuming acre/years rather than pure acres? It'd make sense then (one year to grow crops, several years to grow animals to maturity on the same land).

If your argument is that the amount of land required to feed the people on the earth requires a non-sustainable impact on the natural resources of the planet, and that hence food production needs to be as efficient as possible to reduce the impact on natural land usage, I'd agree. Conditionally. However, my opinion is that the current size and expansion rate of the human race is that which is environmentally unsound. To blame a by product of the problem doesn't cure the problem. There are too many people for the size of planet. We need a war or a disease to sort that all out.

Some of my best friends are animals

You've just never taken the time to have a decent conversation with a vegetable, you heartless, miserable bastard.

Far too much humanising goes on whilst actual people are ignored. Settle your inner-morals by not eating meat but dont take needed mesaures to curb the elephant population that are ruining human lives.

I think your basic premise is wrong. Animals should be considered equally - I had a massive argument with someone recently about whether I was hypocritical or not about my position that no unjustified killing of any animal/human/fish etc is acceptable. I don't think that, in the elephant example, that 'The humans want to live and farm in the areas that the Elephants live' is a good enough reason to kill elephants.

The 'humans were there first' argument is actually bullshit, too. The elephants woudl have been there already, when the farmers wanted to move in, if the same people hadn't hunted them to endangered status for their tusks years ago.

Human requirements do not trump the rights of an animal to life unless it is for the direct survival of one or the other (ie for food). The cull of the elephants is the killing of animals (as in my above comment to che) because there are too many humans, not too many elephants. Cull the humans. It should be just as easily justified if the space is an issue.

Brock, yes ten acre years and no im not sure its 10:1 but its certainly a fair bit more land useage.

oh and brock, I'm totally with you on the over population thing.

That's why I always try to be nice to gay people, so that they feel good about being gay, and then god will get cross and increase the hurricanes and flooding.

;)

Also I'm not getting into a debate about this (especially not with Sullivan as he might boycott my wedding) because it's been done to death. :)

1. Many animals would have no compunction about killing us in cruel and nasty ways, and then eating us.

2. If dog didn't want me to eat meat, why did he give me these pointy teeth?

3. As we are human and are capable of compassion and reasoning, how about if we kill them nicely? Like, take them out fo a drink, spike their drink with a suitable date-rape drug, then SHOOT THEM THROUGH THE HEAD while they are out of it.

4. Yes, the population is too big. I knew we shouldn't have stopped with sterilising just the Indians. Not to worry, some new plague will be along soon to cull us down to a reasonable size. BACTERIA AND VIRUSES WILL RULE THE EARTH.

"1. Many animals would have no compunction about killing us in cruel and nasty ways, and then eating us."

Yes but they are animals, they don't know any better. We are supposed to be better than that.

I think people should be limited to having two children each. I mean FFS, what is the point in having 11 children that you cannot even feed? I get annoyed when I see someone with four toddlers hanging around her ankles and another one on the way. BIRTH CONTROL PEOPLE!

Yes but they are animals, they don't know any better. We are supposed to be better than that.

you don't think dolphins are more intelligent than us?
i do and suspect they are sitting and waiting to take over the world

Posted by syl, 10 hours ago:

...BIRTH CONTROL PEOPLE!

of all the people...

...

Super-intelligent tuna will take over from the dolphins in a matter of time. With the advent of dolphin-friendly tuna; the tuna who can escape from the nets like the dolphins have suddenly got a massive evolutionary advantage. They're evolving at such a rapid rate, it's only a matter of time before they get opposable thumbs and can use weapons.

Brock I don't have any children. And if i did it would only be one, so what's your point?

I think what he's trying to say is that kids are a pain in the arse and should be avoided at all cost.

No, it's that you are a brilliant and compelling advert for birth control, that's all.

[deleted]

Never mind. I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

No, it's that you are a brilliant and compelling advert for birth control, that's all.

Harsh.

Don't worry Syl, that puts you in line with about 95% of the Earth's population.

I still think my answer was better.

Ja :)

lol @ Meatwood's tuna comment

Super-intelligent tuna. Smarter than your average dolphin.

If they're so clever will we still eat them in casseroles and salads?

:(

Not if you can't catch them. It's only the stupid tuna that can't escape the dolphin friendly net. I guess you could shoot one; if it didn't get you first. Or take it on in some kind of underwater sword fight.

i would love to be vegetarian, for ethical/moral reasons, but each time i've tried it, my quality of life tanks. sucks.

i love kornbluth's old idea of growing a huge cow tumour that we just keep carving steaks off of.

but until then: i eat meat. that way i can operate with a clarity and energy that i simply can't achieve on even the keenest of vegetarian efforts. ideally, wild culled meat -- animal has a rich full natural life; dies typically way after a natural normal life would entail it being eaten by predators. eg, deer, kangaroo.


re elephants, crocodiles: this gets back to my old point re humans protecting only charismatic megafauna. most animals exhibit the same empathy and social characteristics that elephants do. but humans' power complex leads them to overweight the magic and wonder of BIG animals.

elephants do TREMENDOUS damage to the environment and, it's been recently discovered, to other animals. their current over-growth is due entirely to special treatment by humans. that over-growth is having enormous local consequences for the other wildlife. altering that human treatment i don't see as suddenly morally culpable.

and re crocs: they are actively culled in oz, as the protection of them leads to occasional but habitual population explosions. we are also trying to protect sharks. (altho note that, historically, if you've had fish & chips in australia and opted for the supercheap "flake" -- you ate shark.) intermittently it gets publicity and at that point gets protests. but it's amusing how much lower key those protests are than for mammals.

similarly in oz: a recent culling of a wild-horse population explosion that was fucking up thousands of square miles of native-wildlife-supporting mulga drew enormous protest. amusingly, only from people who'd never encountered one, let alone had to deal with their behaviour's consequences. all of the locals were unanimous in agreeing that the numbers needed to be reduced to where they had historically been.

fur. size. warm blood. THAT'S important.

krill can all die. fuck krill.

i do love how we choose to cull animal populations, but us humans get to continue working on over populating the earth.

I agree.

"krill can all die. fuck krill."
AND mozzies AND flies.

;)

I think you will find that krill are very important to the food chain.

Krill are shrimp-like marine invertebrate animals. These small crustaceans are important organisms of the zooplankton, particularly[as food for baleen whales, manta rays, whale sharks, crabeater seals and other seals, and a few seabird species that feed almost exclusively on them. - wikipedia

See krillcount.org
Some scientists warn that the potential now exists for localized depletion of krill at levels that could seriously impact the entire southern marine ecosystem

I love Baleen Whales.

Bless you

every time i baleen whales they compleen

su: yeah. but on the other hand bear in mind that in the areas i mentioned, the human-decided cull is in response to the population explosion that was directly and solely enabled by human-decided modification of the environment in the first place, and the culls merely reduce the population to a sustainable level. ie the cull actually serves to reduce or ideally remove human impact. better that 10% die suddenly and nearly without pain than 80% die lingeringly of starvation. the lesser of two evils. great in theory but always objected to by the "unlucky" ones. whinging little bastards that they are. well, briefly, anyway...
granted, a third option is to cull wild humans and confine the majority to small self-contained reservations. but the EU Court of Human Rights objects to every such measure! those antigreen BASTARDS!!

redmaiden: "krill" -- i may not have been clear: i was being sarcastic, in line with my point that humans tend to disregard the most important things in favour of the cutest or the biggest or the most anthropomorphicable things. krill, along with plankton and bacteria, are far and away the most important creatures on the planet.

the average human is 10 times as much bacteria as s/he is human.

That's ok then Salty

you may be right salt - but instead of culls, they could actively manage the wild population by birth control.

prevention is better than the cure and all that

elephant condoms

Who the hell would want the job of removing a massive big spunky elephant condom, wrapping it in tissue and then putting it in the bin? Gross!

Arf! Che, your habits!

I'm sure the elephant would want to do that himself...

wrapping it in tissue and then putting it in the bin?

You kids are so *classy*.

You just wipe it on the curtain, hey Doc?

stiff curtains

Is that how he makes you moan in the bedroom?

EEEEEWWWWWWW

This party's getting dirty, gimme my trousers I'm going home.

stiffy curtains

and just think of the environmental impact of all that wasted rubber, not to mention the huge tissues.

plus there's the whole risk of confusion, people putting the rubbers on the front of the elephant

Haha!

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