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• Hello!

Does anybody know if there are any demos in Scotland this coming weekend? I'd like to get to London but don't think I'll manage.

Any info or a link would be great.

War Demonstrations, the games been played and lost. now is the time to back the boys 100%

here here

I do support the troops. I hope more than anything that Saddams troops surrender and this can be done with the minimum of fuss and maximum of speed. If there is heavy combat I hope there are as few casualties as possible and have confidence that will be the case for the superbly trained UK forces.

Protesting against the war is a protest against the government and there reasoning and not the troops. I don't know exactly what support a Sun pullout in my window would show anyway. I hope 100% of them come home alive but I still sure as hell don't agree with what hey have been ordered to do.

Hence interest in where the demos are this weekend.

War Demonstrations, the games been played and lost.

Yes, and what an absolutely pathetic game it was too.

err gary. it was the biggest protest of our time, by miles. how is that pathetic?

There are no demonstrations on in either Edinburgh or Glasgow.

The game has been played and Tony Blair has trounced the opposition, going to war is the right thing to do, going to war is the necessary thing to do. when the people saying that it is wrong are Michael Foot, Robin Cook, Clair Short, Ken Livingston, Charles Kennedy and Neil Kinnock then i want to be on the other side.

It might have been a big protest, but it achieved absolutely nothing.

I must apologise for linking to the Mirror website, but can you believe some of these front pages?

Thanks Foghorn.

Yes he trounced the opposition with the largest parlimentary rebellion since the mid 19th century. Way to go!!!

Doesn't change the fact that this war is illegal and the world just took a step back in time 60 years.

"It might have been a big protest, but it achieved absolutely nothing."

The point wasn't to achieve it was to try and achieve.

"It might have been a big protest, but it achieved absolutely nothing."

well, it DID achieve what it set out to do. make the country and the government aware that there are lots of people in this country who don't want this war.

it is a comic (the mirror)

and what's wrong with any of those front pages?

I cant beleive I missed that Audi TT competition!

The war isn't illegal, every UN resolution on the subject of iraq since the end of the first gulf war gives a legitimate legal right to go to war.

The world took a step back in time 60 years when iraq started to produce WOMD.just like when a country threatened to commit atrocities against its neighbours and a 'Coalition of the willing' (the allies) went to war to stop it. sound familiar?

there is, in my humble opnion, more to this war than meets our eye's or the media's eye's.
personally i coudn't give a fuck what happens cause it wont affect me, selfish and arrogant maybe but just my point of view.

Also, you should always apologise for linking to the mirror and thinking for some reason that this strengthens your argument.

What I love is how the irony of the situation is lost on many pro-war folks. The very thing that they are over there fighting to achieve is my right to protest the fact that they are over there.

i coudn't give a fuck what happens cause it wont affect me

Sure about that?

"The war isn't illegal"

Well, under international law, rather than tabloid politics, it is. unless the UN sactions war, which is *hasn't* (there is no current resolution which mandates the use of force) then it *is* illegal.

I'm interested to know why you think it *is* legal...

"The war isn't illegal, every UN resolution on the subject of iraq since the end of the first gulf war gives a legitimate legal right to go to war. "

No they are not. They use the term 'serious consequences' which any politicain or diplomat will tell you is not and never has been the recognised diplomatic langauge for war. The phrase required and recognised for the last 60 years has been 'all neccesary means' This did not appear in 1441.

"The world took a step back in time 60 years when iraq started to produce WOMD.just like when a country threatened to commit atrocities against its neighbours and a 'Coalition of the willing' (the allies) went to war to stop it. sound familiar?"

Iraq started to produce WMD in earnest when the french supplied nuclear equipment and the UK and USA supplied munitions, chem and bio agents and the infastructure to turn this into a capability. So by your reasoning it's our own fault. This is nothing like WW2.

Also which is the only country that has threatened use of WMD in the upcoming war?

" coudn't give a fuck what happens cause it wont affect me "

ha! you say that now, but when you get drafted...

"lets try and get a second resolution"
"oh, not fair! we dont have support for one"
"oh I know we'll just not bother with one cos we are so sure we are right"

"FUCK OFF"

no, not for sure but i can't forsee it affecting me, i won't lose my job, i know no-one out there, and if it goes on and on, and we all have to fight..... i will be a drummer in the army band. :)

"Disarm"
"We are"
"Well do it faster"
"We're Trying"
"Well do it all in the next week or we will kill you"
"..."

So the password for going to war is 'all neccesary means' and if you don't say it you can't go to war, what happens if you forget it? do you call the foreign office IT department and ask them to log you back in?

The Attorney General says its legal. good enough for me and just about everyone else.

What does it matter where he got the weapons from? do you think we should hold off until he hits us with the bomb? would we be justified then? the bible says 'An eye for an eye' lets wait till a few million are dead eh? or we could just go in now and stop things from getting that far.

Only one country has threatened use of WMD, America, they are capable of using them, which begs the question 'Who's side should we be on?'

not quite agreeing with you there chay:

"Disarm"
"Ok"
"You're not doing it"
"Ok, we'll do it now"
"You're STILL not doing it"
"Ok, we'll do it now"
"It's been 12 years"
"Die Capitalist Scum, we will kill you if you start a war!!!11!!!!"
"Right, lets have a war"

"So the password for going to war is 'all neccesary means' and if you don't say it you can't go to war, what happens if you forget it? do you call the foreign office IT department and ask them to log you back in?"

funny as you are, that is the way international law works

without a properly worded resolution, war is illegal. last week the attorney general thought war wasn't legal. now, with nothing changed, he's decided it's legal. no one appears to be agreeing with him :/

"So the password for going to war is 'all neccesary means' and if you don't say it you can't go to war"

Yeah pretty much. It has been recognised in every conflict since WW2 with the exception of Suez. It is not law but it is an example of how the UN was flagrently disregarded.

"what happens if you forget it? "

You put it in the next resolution. When deciding to go to war you don't forget things like this. If you do you're incompetent.

So they do nothing for twelve years.
then suddenly its disarm or its war.
but then from that point on ANY effort made to disarm, destruction of missiles, inspections etc is met with "its all a trick they arent disarming" war war war

hello war time war for war a war we war love war war war.

'You can't do that, its against the law' seems like a rather pathetic final card to play. lets assume incorrectly that it IS illegal, who's prosecuting? The UN? nice try but not without american funding, are the french or germans going to cough up, not fucking likely. and in any case, who's got the best lawyers?

"So then mr attorney general is war legal?"
AG: Nope
"Pardon"
AG: Nope
"I'm sorry I didnt catch that, try again"
AG: No
"You're really not getting this are you, one more time and think carefully before you answer"
AG: Um oh yes it is legal after all, how silly of me.

"So they do nothing for twelve years. then suddenly its disarm or its war."

well, those were the terms of the original resolution - not war, but 12 years to disarm or "action would have to be taken to disarm" (paraphrasing - i can't find it)

The war isn't illegal, every UN resolution on the subject of iraq since the end of the first gulf war gives a legitimate legal right to go to war.

Correct.

Also, you should always apologise for linking to the mirror and thinking for some reason that this strengthens your argument.

I didn't link to the Mirror to strengthen my argument. I linked to the Mirror to point out those disgraceful front pages. Period.

and what's wrong with any of those front pages?

I think we all agree on our opinions about the Mirror. Those front pages, in my opinion, are disgraceful.

The point wasn't to achieve it was to try and achieve.

I think the achieving and trying to achieve got blurred into one.

well, it DID achieve what it set out to do. make the country and the government aware that there are lots of people in this country who don't want this war.

It seemed to me that the demonstration was about trying to stop the war, not just trying to make the Government aware.

victor: the fact it's illegal doesn't mean what you think it does. for a start, it means that iraq is allowed to retaliate against the US/UK. it is allowed to kill civillians without it being illegal by international law. that is not a good thing.

as for who the UN are, don't confuse the UN with just the UN security council. most every country in the world is a member of the UN.

well, that's how a democracy works! the people's views are acted out by the elected government - the people can't "do things", they can only lobby the leaders.

I saw a woman once on the ant-war march that i attended for comedy purposes, she had a sign saying 'i marched for myself, then i marched for my children, now i'm marching for my grandchildren. when will we learn?' after the doctor sewed my split sides together i though about not only the fact that she's obviously a pretty shit marcher but which were the wars? probably the falklands. (war won against the odds due to pure guts and courage to liberate the people of an island who overwhelmingly consider themselves british) and the first gulf war (another just war to liberate an annexed country from an evil tyrant responsible for de-stabilising his region for the past 20 years, aggressor of the Iran-Iraq war, gasser of Kurds, and would be destroyer of Israel) thank god she fucked up her third march as well.

"The war isn't illegal, every UN resolution on the subject of iraq since the end of the first gulf war gives a legitimate legal right to go to war.

Correct. "

Sorry Gary you are wrong. Have you even read 1441?

Heads of International Law at Oxford and Cambridge (each of whom knows a damn site more than The Attorney General) along with Cherie Blairs chambers and thousands of others have all said it's illegal.

Sorry gary, misunderstood you there but the mirror makes my blood boil.

"I saw a woman once on the ant-war march that i attended for comedy purposes, she had a sign saying 'i marched for myself, then i marched for my children, now i'm marching for my grandchildren. when will we learn?' after the doctor sewed my split sides together i though about not only the fact that she's obviously a pretty shit marcher but which were the wars? probably the falklands. (war won against the odds due to pure guts and courage to liberate the people of an island who overwhelmingly consider themselves british) and the first gulf war (another just war to liberate an annexed country from an evil tyrant responsible for de-stabilising his region for the past 20 years, aggressor of the Iran-Iraq war, gasser of Kurds, and would be destroyer of Israel) thank god she fucked up her third march as well."

Or Korea, Vietnam, Eritrea, Kosovo...

"It seemed to me that the demonstration was about trying to stop the war, not just trying to make the Government aware."

Nobody I marched with thought the war was going to be stopped.

valid points all.



Its not a democracy, its a republic, the people choose the leaders to make the decisions.

Vietnam, now there was a good one. The american's sure showed them the might of the US Army. [/ sarcasm]

yeah, we took some punishing casualties in the Korean, Vietnam and Eritrea wars. i agree with you on kosovo though, that was a disgraceful part of british history.

what did the brits do wrong in kosovo?

p.s i'm not trying to provoke a riot... i just don't know

i've added a new tag that you can use to quite other people's words:

<div class="quote">blah</div>

just testing.

"what did the brits do wrong in kosovo?

p.s i'm not trying to provoke a riot... i just don't know"

The war was illegal.

Cal, i have a great pic that would go here but i have no idea how to post it. Can you help please?

RUSS : The serbs were commiting acts of genocide against ethnic albanians settled in the region, obviously this is a bad think but after we were through with them, the Albanians in the region were in such a strong position (partly due to our arming and training the misleadingly titled KLA [Kosovo Liberation Army] who are in fact, a tin-pot bunch of terrorists.) that the remaining serb settlers were forced to leave their land (kosovo historically belongs to the serbs and is a particularly mineral rich area) in fear of their lives. thus aiding the albanians who are a nation of criminals and gangsters to steal the whole region.

cal is a jerk

no

mail it to me if it's not on the web. else read this page: www.iamcal.com/html.php

ilovebeerme, 14:16 19 March 2003 :
"what did the brits do wrong in kosovo?

p.s i'm not trying to provoke a riot... i just don't know"

The war was illegal.

is that an amusing wind-up?

Why did this war start? Excuse from Americans is cos Suddam is killing and maltreating the Iraqis and the west disagrees with him.

This kind of sounds like Bush senior is using Bush junior as a puppet.

It's all about the money, It's all about the dum dum da dee da da.

That is all.

Chuppet

Cal, sent it.

Chay: Big amount of respect for sneaking in a Neja lyric into a war thread :)

"is that an amusing wind-up?"

Nope it was also illegal for us to be there. I know less of the facts for that conflict though.

from FL:

wey-hey!! That made me laugh anyway.

I have indeed. And I can tell you now that if I read the words 'serious concequences', I'd know something pretty serious would happen to me if I didn't comply. 1441 cleared the way for a legal war - and the countries that signed up for it were all well aware of what 'serious concequences' meant - even if it wasn't clearly stated.

"is that an amusing wind-up?"

Nope it was also illegal for us to be there. I know less of the facts for that conflict though.

Best get my lawyer ready then, do you know when my call-up to the Hague is?

"I have indeed. And I can tell you now that if I read the words 'serious concequences', I'd know something pretty serious would happen to me if I didn't comply. 1441 cleared the way for a legal war - and the countries that signed up for it were all well aware of what 'serious concequences' meant - even if it wasn't clearly stated."

It did not clear the way for a legal war. International politics does not have room for 'even if it wasn't clearly stated', you open that door and we are all in deep deep shit. 1441 did not in the history of the UN and international diplomacy set a path for war should compliance fail.

Blah, Blah, Blah, the bottom line is we are going to war. you can't stop it so back up the boys and don't forget the fact that history loves a winner.

Not-Peace Out.

"Best get my lawyer ready then, do you know when my call-up to the Hague is?"

I think you will be fine ;). The war was still illegal in terms of international law though. Ask a lawyer if you don't believe me. And as, I assume , you carried out no atrocities while carrying out orders you would be fine anyway.

I don't know exactly why it was deemed illegal that time but I'll try to find some info. The humanitarian need was also considered to be greater in that case.

"Blah, Blah, Blah, the bottom line is we are going to war. you can't stop it so back up the boys and don't forget the fact that history loves a winner. "

As my second post says I hope the soldiers over there as part of the Allied force suffer a minimum of casualties (scary what with US friendly fire ;) ), however, I am still 100% against the timing and the manner in which we arrived at the decision.

So what you're saying is that knowing what we knew was going on in Kosovo, unless it was given legal approval, you wouldn't have done anything to stop it? Glad you're not the PM.

gary - that's taking the law into your own hands. would you murder a murderer? i mean it's illegal, but you'd want to do something, right? i'm VERY glad you're not in any kind of charge.

uk.news.yahoo.com/030319/80/dvsmo.html

That is not how we should be living, No matter how much we protect ourselves, how advanced our technology gets, we still are being threatened like the beggining of the 20th centuary.

"So what you're saying is that knowing what we knew was going on in Kosovo, unless it was given legal approval, you wouldn't have done anything to stop it? Glad you're not the PM."

Thats exactly why we have the UN. And get off the high horse. He's doing bugger all to stop the horrific abuses, rapes, murders and starvations in North Korea, Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, Tibet, Central African Rebublic, Palestine, Somalia....the list goes on.

Who'd let all that continue knowing whats going on....oh wait we do.

In closing my views on this subject, I think it's fair to say that we wouldn't be on the brink of war now if the job had of been done properly the first time round.

That much I'll agree with.

If the job had been done properly the first time round the American would put another Suddam Insane as the leader to protect their Oil against Iran like they did 30 years ago

It will just go round in a big loop

doesn't it always?

Like the windmills in your mind.

a wheel within a wheel,
never ending or beginning
on an ever spinning reel

Yes. I'd have Mugabe on my hit list as well. This country should bring back capital punishment - but that's another debate altogether. ;)



No. I like it up here. :P



I have a bad feeling that North Korea is next after Iraq.



Good point. It would be nice to think that we could solve all those countries problems simaltaneously, but in reality without a collective global effort, it's impossible to put a stop to it all right away. I would applaud any efforts by this Government or any other to help the people of those countries you mentioned.

Well, if it helps, think of this impending war as righting that wrong!

lets all stop this and have a nice sing song.

two wrongs don't make a right

War!, huh, What is it good for? Absolutly Nothing

Say it again Y'all

haha i was going to sing that one!!

And you'd be right to do so but we shouldn't ignore the international community.

I can't help but think that this could all be avoided if people just smoked more weed. :)

Good call, Chay. :)

The heat is on.
The heat is oh-on.
The heat is on.
Its on the street.
Yeah the heat is on.
Der-ner-ne-ne-ne Der ne-ne-ne-ne

Of course they don't. why would they? If your in Maths or any other subject and were asked 2 questions you answered them wrongly then if you were at school, those would probably your homework questions and you would get detention for not doing your homework.

Two negatives make a positive though and that is all that matters.

so if you are raped (a negative)
and then murdered (a negative)
is that a positive? I think not :)

What about if Craig Charles does it Chay??

*ducks*

Well yes cos then you don't have to feel the hurt after being raped, but no also because they are not just negative things but wrongful doings, which is what they will be classed as.

Craig Charles doesnt do Ducks. That was a vicious rumour too :)

We all live in a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine yellow submarine

come on people sing with me

Sea of Green!

that's the spirit!

SUBMARINE

i hate that song.

Lets sing 'Car wash' instead.

I can't remember the words so i will just hum it.

mmm mmm mmmmm nmmnnmmm mmmmmm hmmmm hmmmmmmmmmm

Imagine this. There are three people.

The first one is Danny. Danny steals cars, deals drugs and is generally Not Very Nice. Let's put him in charge of the police force. Disagree? Good.

The next one is Harold. Harold is a paedophile. Now, to all of you who read The Sun or The Daily Mail (it's obvious who you are), you're quite familiar with that type of person. You've learnt that they're Very Bad Indeed. Alright, let's put Harold in charge of a school! DailyMailarama! The self-righteous, ill-informed brigade go ballistic and there's hell to pay.

The third person is George. George isn't a very nice man and has done lots of things wrong, but what's more important is who he represents. He represents some REALLY bad people. They bomb countries whose names they can't pronounce, impose sanctions on 52% of the world's population, disagree with everyone else using violence to enforce it, sponsor killing on a daily basis, have only their own interests at heart and are hellbent on dominating the globe in every conceivable way.

Let's put George in charge of our "defence" policy.

And you don't mind?

You'd be comfortable with Harold running a school?

don't you think It would scare the children to see a man with an arrow in his eye?

hahahaha :)

I think the they should be more worried about the twinkle in his eye

in america he would have a Twinkie in his eye, to entice the kiddies

I cant believe how bad that joke was, Chay

thank you. i do try

Why did none of you rip me apart for this amusing typo?

haha, ANT WAR!!!!!!!!!!

THE ANTS, THEY ARE TAKING OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!!!111

I want to see and ant-war

wax dolls

RedAndWhiteMan says: i was in the ant-war!

so which side were you on redanwhiteman, the red or black ants, and i assume that you won

the readandwhite ants surely