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• Hello!

news.independent.co.uk/uk/media/story.js...

Looks like you and Jimbob Hill are kindred spirits.

Good job old chinny's career has been dead in the water for years eh?

You're so nasty, calling him that!

How Lookist of you. I'm disgusted.

Ah, piss off slaphead.

Can't see the story from work =[

Jimbob Rimjob.

chinny?

LOL!!!!

:D

for grim:

The former Match of the Day presenter Jimmy Hill has enraged campaigners by insisting that racist comments are simply a matter of "fun" between footballers.
In an interview with The Independent published today, Mr Hill leapt to the defence of fellow pundit Ron Atkinson who resigned from ITV last month after describing Chelsea defender Marcel Desailly as a "lazy, fucking thick nigger".
Atkinson, 65, who accepted he was "an idiot" and apologised, was unaware his microphone was on at the time and the remarks were broadcast in the Middle East.
When asked whether Mr Atkinson should have resigned, Mr Hill insisted it was the "language of the football field".
The 75-year-old, who now presents a weekly programme on Sky Sports, added: "In that context, you wouldn't think that words like nigger were particularly insulting: it would be funny. Without meaning to insult any black men, it's us having fun.
"What about jokes about my long chin? I mean, nigger is black - so we have jokes where we call them niggers because they're black. Why should that be any more of an offence than someone calling me chinny?"
Piara Powar, director of Kick It Out, football's anti-racism group, described the comments as "mind boggling" and out of touch with today's footballers. "Jimmy Hill's comments are as offensive as Ron Atkinson's. It is a frightening insight into some of the attitudes his generation still hold," he added.
Brendon Batson, former deputy chief executive of the Professional Footballers' Association, said: "I am a bit surprised by Jimmy's comments. That is the most insulting word to the black community."

Isn't that nice; jeff typed it ALL out for you.

I agree with this statement totally.

I am well aware that Big Ron shouldn't have said what he did, but at the end of the day, is it any worse than calling Gazza a fat-arse?

It's just a word.

Cheers, Jeff.

*insert that old ASCII 'thud' that Chay did ages ago here*

Thud, my arse.

You can't think of a good argument for why the above is wrong, because, quite frankly, it's not.

*thud* isn't going to cut it.

Desailly should be far more offended by the comment that he was lazy, because at least that's attacking what he actually is inside, not the colour of his skin (or the size of his chin).

Why is it right? It's fucking racism any way you look at it...

Last time I checked, racism is frowned upon more than 'comedy-chinnism'.

Racism is just a form of discrimination.
You discriminate against people that read the Sun, but that, of course, is acceptable, right?

I have no real problem with the readership, just the actual paper, since it's probably more responsible for inciting hatred and perpetuating simplistically ignorant arguments than even the Mail.

You could also argue that the Guardian does a similar thing on a different level but that's a potential Pandora's box right there.

*whoosh*, anyone?
Okay, how about this - can you actually answer Jimmy's question?

The problem with your argument is that it's based on everything being on the 'same level'; no grey areas, no sensitive subjects..

A bit like when you suggested that called Jimmy Hill 'chinny' carries the same amount of points as calling someone a 'nigger' etc.

"we call them niggers because they're black"



^^ LOOK AT WHAT HE IS SAYING!!!!

"Because their skin just happens to be a certain colour we will solely refer to them with a highly derogatory term. They don't care do they? IT'S FUNNY!!!"

Don't forget it's also based on the colour of the person saying it.

If Desailly turned around and said "That's right, I am a lazy fucking nigger." the world would have gone "Hur hur hur".

I not saying that racism is okay, but I don't see any reason why it should carry more points than any other type of offensive slur.

"Don't forget it's also based on the colour of the person saying it."

No shit. But then if it's a word shared between two people of that race it no longer is a question of racism and is therefore of no relevance to this argument.

"I not saying that racism is okay, but I don't see any reason why it should carry more points than any other type of offensive slur."

Think about this a bit more...

"Because their skin just happens to be a certain colour we will solely refer to them with a highly derogatory term. They don't care do they? IT'S FUNNY!!!"

"Because his chin just happens to be quite big we will solely refer to him with a highly derogatory term. He doesn't care, does he? IT'S FUNNY!!!"

Any form of insult, delivered in anger (and not in jest) is derogatory and shouldn't happen. You can't say that any one is worse than any other, because it's the way that it affects the individual that's important, not how politically incorrect it is.

PC or no, I still wouldn't go up to some random black guy in town and go "Hey Yo! How's it going you black fuck! HAHAHA". Wouldn't be a brilliant idea, that.

And Mr Hill's chin is fucking funny and he should have got fucking used to it by now.

Well, hang on, two points there.

1) Would you go up to a random fat person and go "Hey Yo! How's it going you fat fuck! HAHAHA"?

2) That's the stupidest fucking comment ever. Jimmy Hill has had a big chin all his life, so he should be used to being called names because of it? How long has a black man been black?

(insert MJ gag here)

Put it this way...

Calling someone a 'nigger' is not only an insult to them, but also to their family, their upbrining, their culture, their beliefs and many other factors, most of which they have no control over. It just is.

Calling someone a 'fat bastard' (this happened to me a lot, which is why I became anorexic) is different. It may/will upset the 'target' person but there isn't quite as much a sense of them not being able to fix that, as it were. Like for example, they could lay off the pies. Problem solved. (joke, btw)

for a vast proportion of history, black people have been treated as a lower class purely because of the colour of their skin... terms like 'nigger' are offensive partly because of their historical associations.
I dont remember a bunch of people being enslaved/attacked for having big chins... (of course i could be wrong)

"2) That's the stupidest fucking comment ever. Jimmy Hill has had a big chin all his life, so he should be used to being called names because of it? How long has a black man been black?"

Um... IT'S JIMMY FUCKING HILL FFS!! It's been his fucking dinner ticket since the 1960s, innit!

as always, Jeff puts it better than I ever could.

i would like to have been more eloquent but words fail me today.. probably something to do with making childrens books.. it's not the most mentally taxing job...

I can't put into words just how wrong I think you are.

People make fun of someone because of the colour of their skin, and they lose their job. Make fun of someone for a reason that is deemed 'okay', maybe because they are fat, short, ugly or whatever, and it could hurt their target far more but the rest of society just laughs along.

It's fucking sick.

(Note the 'could', I'm not saying it would, I don't know, but that's not the point).

You couldn't make it up.

What the hell does that mean?

You've totally overlooked what Jeff said though, which was a very true point, and one which sadly is still an issue even today.

grim, life isnt as black and white as you'd like it to be, and it's not deemed ok for you to call someone fat short or ugly at work, it depends on how much offence the person takes to it, and if they do find it really offensive then its classed as harrassment and treated in the same way as a racial slur might be.

people tell me i'm too thin all the time, and tell me its disgusting how thin i am.. now i could get all upset about it and say its the same as being called fat, but its not, i mean it pisses me off but because of the health risks associated with being fat, and the way fat people have been portrayed throughout history, 'fat' has far more negative/offensive conatations than 'thin'

as we have learnt from many a discussion on iamcal, there is no easy answer, no black and white, and grim is usually wrong ;)

You watch, in a bit he'll say he was 'joking all along' like he did the other day...

"I read The Sun"

"I never read The Sun, I was being...er...ironic"

*10,000 Spoons / Knife interface*

Seriously though, is there any 'real world' reasons for your argument? i.e. is it based on anything that's happened to you? Just curious, is all.

Bah, my spelling has gone to shit.

That's been my argument all along.

And while it may be classified as harassment and treated in the same way as a racial slur might be, you and I know that the outcome would probably be very different.



Yeah :)

But at least this time, if I am wrong, I'll be wrong in a right way. I don't think it's right to attack any part of a person, physical, mental, spiritual or otherwise, and if I stick to that belief I think I'll do alright : )

But with baseball bats its OK?

i think there should be a poll, to register people's level of outrage at the phrases:
"you fucking nigger"
"you stupid white bastard"
"you big chinned ignorant knobber"

Actually, a while ago someone kept on calling me a geek (they still do, actually), and I really fucking hated it, and I told him I didn't like it, but he didn't stop, and I couldn't understand why.

I guess now I do.

ah grim i love the way you change your stance in an arguement just so you can be right..

you've changed your point from "attacking someone's race is the same as attacking their chin size" to "its not right to be mean to people"

you sun reading, oversided turbo chargered (compensation), fosters drinking, white bastard. :)

Depends on the situation, 'innit'?

But attacking someone's chin size is being mean to them!

*smacks head on desk*

in calling you a geek they were associating you with a type of person that you didnt want to be associated with.. we still thinks you doth protest FAR too much about that ;)

however, calling someone a nigger as arsepuppy pointed out, is having a stab at their culture and family.

WAYYYYY different.

A *thud* would have done there, I guess : )

"Actually, a while ago someone kept on calling me a geek (they still do, actually), and I really fucking hated it, and I told him I didn't like it, but he didn't stop, and I couldn't understand why."


PERSECUTION COMPLEX AT 12 O'CLOCK!!!!!


Fucking hell. I'm the 'Official Iamcal Jew' and what you're displaying could be constituted as gimmick infringment ;)

yeah my point is dickwad, that you changed your entire arguement. yes of course having a go at someone's physical appearance is mean, but that wasnt the point we were debating.

talking to grim has removed my will to live. i'm going to go taunt brock for a bit so i dont end up killing myself. now where is that bald headed old fogey?

"in calling you a geek they were associating you with a type of person that you didnt want to be associated with.. we still thinks you doth protest FAR too much about that ;) "

Also the obvious evidence FOR your geekiness far outweighed the evidence AGAINST ;p

How so?

If someone has a go at your culture and family, it hurts.

If someone has a go at the size of your chin, it hursts. Who can say which hurts more?

Okay, so these are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but using Jimmy as a example, how do we know that he isn't really sensitive about his chin size? What if he topped himself because he couldn't take all the chin jokes. I bet the gags would dry up then...

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with being a geek.

"What if he topped himself because he couldn't take all the chin jokes"

I feel guilty, but the idea of this made me chuckle :(

That as it may be, it doesn't change the fact that I didn't like it.

Fair enough, I probably am a geek. But you (I guess) used to be fat, and there's nothing wrong with being fat, but people called you fat, and you disliked that so much that you got ill. That's not cool.

Just because something may be true, that doesn't make it okay.

This is better than 'Question Time.'

There's nothing wrong with being fat, ugly, black, geeky or big-chinned.
However, 'lazy' is a different matter (going back to a point from a loooooong time ago).

I think that Atkinson man should have made sure his mic was off before he started shouting out rudey things!

I've been to football matches and all the crowd shout out racist remarks amongst other horrid things.

WH - nothing better than a friendly debate - it certainly makes the afternoon move along quicker.

Just going out for a smoke, queue them up : )

Like "We know where you buy your knickers. Rosieeeeee" ?

Rosie - everyone agrees that Big Ron was in the wrong.

But - oh look - everyone calls him 'Big' Ron!

/runs out for his cigarette

Your posts are starting to sound like the letters in the Sun that don't follow the basic pattern of:

1. Tell the entire story of what you're outraged about

2. Give a few words of disgust, such as "I think it's sick"

Otherwise, if it's a positive letter, they must contain the words/phrases "a real tonic", "salt of the earth" and "working class".

Your post is like a less template-driven 'Sun letter'.

Hitler hated lazy people too.

WarHead: :|


Grim: All I'm saying is that its part of the football "thing" to shout out nasty things at the top of your lungs when you're at a football match.

Oh Bollox! I don't really care. I don't know why I had to butt in there...Sorry.

This has been interesting, but I have other things to do.

I'm off to wee in the front garden ...... I'm sorry, I'll read that again .... I'm off to weed the front garden.

Later, dudes/dudettes.

Your posts say the same thing over and over again, but you're still wrong : )

P.S. I think you added the word "don't" in that sentence by accident.

Hang on a sec - you seem to have a huge amount of knowledge of the Sun considering you don't read it...

As I said before (in relation to weblogs, another pet hate of mine) you have to 'know your enemy' in a way. One of my housemates reads it and I'll have a quick scan just to keep in touch with what they're up to. You can't criticise stuff without doing your homework.

"P.S. I think you added the word "don't" in that sentence by accident."

Nah, I was saying that your post fitted into a third 'Sun letter type' which didn't follow the usual layouts but still had a similar feel.

Hmmm. No, I don't really have much to say.

Apart from I went to school with this guy called Andrew Tibbetts, and he had this really massive chin, and we used to mock him for the size of his chin, and call him "Chin Slammer" because when he turned round you were in serious risk of getting chin slammed right in the face (well, forehead if you're my height), and he probably got well offended by 4 years of chinny comments, because we didn't really see much of him after we all finished school.

Now I'd call Andrew Tibbetts a chin slammer, and in retrospect I think it's probably quite a mean thing to do to someone at such a young and impressionable age. Thank god we didn't drive him to file down his chin in some sick procedure.

But, it's not the same, by any stretch of the imagination, as being a racist. When you call someone a racist name, you are saying "you are just the same as the rest of your kind, you are a group who is categorised by the colour of your skin." You are taking away their individuality, judging them by the colour of their skin, and (due to the historical meaning of the word) suggesting that they are inferior.

Now I don't think we were doing that to Andrew Tibbetts. And I don't think calling Brick a bald git or calling Abe a pie eating railway worker is doing that either. Even if it's meant as an offensive remark, it isn't the same as categorising someone by their race. And not just that, you're using it as an offensive remark. We made fun of Andrew Tibbetts because we thought it was comical and slightly absurd how large his "grande manton" was, his "grosse kinn". Yes, we even translated it into other languages. But to think it's comical and slightly absurd that someone's of a certain race? That's pretty intolerant and uncalled for.

Dear god, I hope Andrew never does a search for his name on Google.

"*10,000 Spoons / Knife interface*"

FUCKING CLASS!

oh and the thud you wanted seems to have gooten lost in the depths of my computer

poo :(

Doctor Lucid that was the most lucid thing you have ever written
Well done, that man.

Why cheers. The truth needed to be told about good old Andrew Chin-bits. Apparently he's an accountant these days.

didn;t robbie's chin come in a close second? dandog was there the day we discovered this wierd thing he could do with his chin.. and i swear it was in no way related to my breaking up with him the following day...

Can you beleive there's not one Andrew Tibbetts on friends reunited?

I really am having trouble understanding this. I can see all your points, but I just don't see how you are missing mine.

Doc says: "We made fun of Andrew Tibbetts because we thought it was comical and slightly absurd how large his "grande manton" was... But to think it's comical and slightly absurd that someone's of a certain race? That's pretty intolerant and uncalled for."

Let's be really clear about this: It was pretty intolerant and uncalled for for you to make fun of that kid because of his chin. And that's my point.

You're all saying that you shouldn't judge a person by the colour of his skin.
Of course, this is absolutley correct.
I'm saying that you shouldn't judge someone by the job they do, the newspaper they read, any physicaly 'abnormalities', or the fact that they know how a turbocharger works : )

And here I close, ladies and gentlemen, with this final point (with which, I fear, I am sounding like the end of an american cartoon): People should be judged by who they are, no exceptions.

I do judge you by who you are Grim... that's the problem

what you do for a job and what newspaper you read is all part of who you are.

yeah, One Can.

;)

So is the colour of your skin / ethnic background, Alf.

I've just collared the one black colleague I have, and asked him to take a read of this thread - can someone approve him?

It would be your final point were it not for the fact you keep on changing your point or adjusting your point to soften the blow.

Your orignal points were:






Your last point isn't quite the same now, is it?

"what you do for a job and what newspaper you read is all part of who you are.


So is the colour of your skin / ethnic background, Alf. "

You're getting mixed up between superficial choices which can define your character and long cultural things which don't have to influence your character. See what I mean?

[Edit - replying to two posts up]

Yes - being lazy is actually a slur on the person you are. If anyone judged me by the way I looked I'd not pay much attention, but if they judged me on the way I am (like Chay) I'd be pissed.

"See what I mean?"

No. Not atall. No - you're saying that your job defines who you are more than your background?

You'd be drunk? Can't that cause laziness? ;p

I don't have to be drunk to be lazy : )

Can one of you approve a guy called 'Dogtanian'?

*approved* even if he was french

I'm not expert on all this but bear with me...

"You're getting mixed up between superficial choices which can define your character"

Your choice of job/workplace/newspaper can (and in the case of the latter, often does) influence your opinions and attitudes etc.

"and long cultural things which don't have to influence your character"

Your background, despite how much importance you believe it may or may not have, does not necessarily define who you are as an individual, You do, as do your actions and beliefs to an extent. But, as Doc mentioned, by using words like 'nigger', you are "taking away their individuality, judging them by the colour of their skin, and (due to the historical meaning of the word) suggesting that they are inferior"

In short, taking the piss out of someone who makes a concious choice to read a certain paper is in no way like using horrible terms like 'nigger'.

Alright, that makes more sense, and I buy that. It is your choice which newspaper you read.

But it's not your choice to have a big chin (surgery aside), is it?

Not to lower the tone or anything, but what is it with the whole 'Jimmy Hill Defensiveness'? Is your chin big?

Grim and Jimmy,
in a tree,
C-H-I-N-N-I-N-G

etc.

Nope. I'm not defending him, just agreeing.

hi guys. i've read all the posts and i think, as a black englishman (my mother is from Liberia in west africa) that you are all right.
for starters, Atkinson deserved to lose his job for what he said. in my mind, anyone that is stupid enough to judge by colour isn't clever enough to have a job on tv.
hill strikes me as being a bit of a twat also, but i guess that everyone already knew that. of course, the thing you should all remember is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
i've been called a nigger in _that_ way a few times, and to be honest it doesn't burn as much as you guys all suggest it would. it hasn't happened for a long time, however. now i'd say "yeah, i am. i'm a black man, and i'm proud to be a black man."
as for grim's point about agreeing with "Why should that be any more of an offence than someone calling me chinny?" i don't know the answer, because i don't have a big chin.
i do know a slur is a slur, never mind how it's served, and the only person who can tell us how it burns is the man or woman on the other end of it.
finally, to doctor lucid, i think we all did things like that when we were kids, man.
peace to you all.

A-hahahaha : D

Thanks Dogtanian. Some good points, welcome aboard!

thanks, puppy.
also, a point of interest, none of my black friends call each other nigger, it's more of a film thing, or maybe an american thing.

Mmm.

You can't really argue with any of that, can you?

/tries

/fails

/talks about himself in the third person

we do call each other brother, though!

You call everybody 'brother', though : )

dogtanian, call him arse, he doesn't like it being shortened to puppy ;)

hang on, a dog and a puppy? are you his father?!!

The final word on the matter, methinks.

Hurrah for Bruce Campbell.

I did miss most of this, due to the fact that they made me work today and I didn't have the time to get drawn in. I do have to say though, that I am undecided if Grim...'s naivety about racist slur's being offensive or not is a good thing, because he therefore doesn't see racism as a valid means to judge or insult a person. Or that he is such an avid and regular Sun reader that he has been so over-exposed to it as to become immune.

Hmmmmm. Can't decide.

>is a frightening insight into some of the attitudes his generation still hold


Hmmm.... does anyone else see a bit of a hypocritical sweeping generalisation here?

"the attitues some of his generation still hold" would be ok... but aren't they now saying that all people in Jimmy Hill's generation are racist chinny bastards?

:o/

I mean! They can't all have big chins, can they?

Irritating. The argument is the same as that used when people say 'cunt' is offensive. I think context has more than a little part to play.

Yeah, I mean saying:
"That Matthew Kelly is a cunt"
is never even going to raise an eyebrow, even in a monastery.
But you once say:
"Stop being a cunt Mum, and pass the salt" and your ears are ringing for a week.

Life is so damned complicated.

Nah - you just have to learn the rules.

"Never call your mum a cunt, even in jest" - Rule one of being able to speak.

Saying that I was talking to my dad tonight and my mum pissed him off. Under his breath to me he said "and I was going to let her wank me off tonight" to which I laughed and then thought "errrrr, thats a bit weird to say to your son".

ABOWCO!!

I love the brotherhood thing - it's really ace and it's like wearing a protective jacket. Everyone is everyone's brother / sister. It's SOLID!

Welcome Dogtanian ;-)

naivety about racist slur's being offensive

What? When did I say they weren't?

Anyway, I don't really have time for this today : )

Packing for the 'Lack of Awareness' convention?